Jeff Cranson: 0:07

Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast. I'm Jeff Cranson. Today I'll be talking with MDOT's Director of Government Affairs, troy Hagn. He has been with the department in one capacity or another since 2008. And after 16 years he's moving on for a new position in the private sector. He'll be deputy director of the American Council of Engineering Companies of Michigan, which means he'll be working with a lot of the transportation consultants that oversee a heck of a lot of work on various transportation components.

Jeff Cranson: 0:49

So we talked about what he learned along the way during his time at the department, what things stuck with him, what he feels like he was able to accomplish and what challenges remain, and about what he'll be doing in his new role. So I hope you enjoy the conversation about what he'll be doing in his new role. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. So, Troy, thanks for agreeing to come on and talk a little bit sort of your parting shots as you get ready to leave the department and start on a new career in the private sector. We'll call this the life and times of a DOT legislative liaison. So you've been on the podcast before and talked about some very specific issues, but let's talk just first a little bit about you and your background and how you got here. You didn't grow up planning to be a government affairs director for MDOT, so talk about your trajectory.

Troy Hagon: 1:40

Sure. So, as some folks in the department know, I was born and raised in Coleman, which is around Midland, the center.

Troy Hagon: 1:49

That comes up once in a while and it really the political bug bit me in 1990.

Troy Hagon: 1:57

My father had received a computer from Governor Blanchard's Classrooms for Tomorrow program computer from Governor Blanchard's Classrooms for Tomorrow program and we my father contacted the campaign of Governor Blanchard in 1990, and we traveled with the governor and the first lady, Janet, and my father spoke on the stump for the governor at a few campaign events and about receiving his computer for his classroom.

Troy Hagon: 2:28

And that's really when the bug bit me. I was a freshman in high school and then I had followed politics because my father was very active within politics. But that's really when I started to follow them and then went on to get earn a political science degree at CMU and interned in the house and that turned into a job in the house in 1998. So, I started interning in 1987, started my job in 1998 and then worked in the legislature for like well 11 years and then came over to the department. I've been here for 16 years. So it's been a really great career in the public sector and I've met a lot of great people and been able to learn a lot from folks. I've met a lot of great people and been able to learn a lot from folks, and you know, sadly but excitedly.

Jeff Cranson: 3:30

Moving on to the private sector, so when you talk about political science, you actually had an interest in another science early on and that was library science. And that's not so crazy really, because that's an intellectually curious pursuit in its own. But talk a little bit about why that interested you at one time.

Troy Hagon: 4:10

Certainly so, my entire four years at CMU I worked in the library at CMU in government docs and the law library and really enjoyed that time there. And so, after serving in the legislature for like 11 years and having to follow the trends of, you know, up and down employment due to elections, I started to look for other career opportunities. So, I went on to Wayne State University and got my master's in library and information science, and I never did leave the career in politics, as all of you can tell, and stayed with politics. But that master's degree helped me a lot in the ability to research, analyze and synthesize information for my colleagues and the folks that we're serving in the taxpaying public and in the legislature.

Jeff Cranson: 4:53

Yeah, I'd say a strong emphasis on synthesize, because there's so many complex issues that we deal with and we have to try to break them down and explain them, in your case to lawmakers, in my case to media. You've become very adept at that and I think that'll serve you well in your new job. And I should mention I did in the intro. So funding consumes so much of our conversations. It's kind of what really got me interested in transportation before I came to the department and it's why I sort of chose the department when I was offered various positions, because of what I had learned, you know, of assigning reporters stories about it, writing columns about it. It's, it's such an important issue and it's not just roads and bridges, it's all modes. Tell me what you. What do you recall first thinking about transportation funding? I mean before you joined the department, your years in the legislature, even earlier. Was it really on your radar?

Troy Hagon: 5:52

Yes, it would have been on my radar because during my internship in 1997, that's when the gas tax increase was passed under Governor Engler gas tax increase was passed under Governor Engler.

Troy Hagon: 6:10

So I do recall those discussions going on. I was not actively involved with them but I do recall in 97 those discussions going on. And then I recall the finishing up of the Build 1, 2, and 3 bonding programs under governor engler going on and then you know, I wasn't actively involved we I when I, when I worked for the members of the legislature from the upper peninsula, they were on transportation but I don't think that it was the focus of each of the committee members that it is now um in the early 2000s. But then when I came to the department in 2008, there was two central issues that we started to work on right away and that was the Gordie Howe International Bridge at that time it was called the DRIC and transportation funding and transportation funding. So even though I was there for those, you know those discussions in 97 and continue to work on transportation issues from 97 up until 2008 when I came to the department. So it was always sort of on my radar but not actively engaged as I became when I came to the department.

Jeff Cranson: 7:24

So it informs you know so much of what we do, like so many things, whether it's people complaining about rest areas or winter maintenance, or you know so many people we hear from some frustration that you and I talk about all the time. It's like I know I know there's no money, but just do this one thing for me. You know we can joke about how that's tiresome and how it's kind of a burnout to have to keep explaining to people that we don't have enough funding. And in your new job as deputy director of ACEC of Michigan, representing the Council of Engineering Consultants, who are obviously big advocates for more funding, engineering consultants, who are obviously big advocates for more funding. They understand the national level. They do a report card every year on our nation's infrastructure and why it's falling apart because of a lack of funding. So, you know, do you feel like you'll be rejuvenated to talk about that? I mean, how do you find the energy to keep talking about this topic so many years later?

Troy Hagon: 8:25

Well, I think what gives me that rejuvenation and the drive to continue to talk about it is, first of all, the importance of it, but second of all, when we do get those major or minor wins, like when we got the funding in 2015, that gives you a little bit of extra pickup in your step to continue to talk about it. And then when, when you look at IIJA from the federal level even, you know, even though that doesn't solve the problem, but it continues to advocate for the uh, the problem, and find some solution, a little bit of a solution there, um, those are all things that help me to continue the drive to make the discussion or to continue the discussion. And it's just the overall importance that if I have a six-year-old daughter and so if we don't continue to talk about these things and try to solve them, then I'm just passing that burden on to her and her generation to come. So I mean, really, when I look at the issue, at the importance of the issue, and I look at my family and Lila, you know it's to try to help lessen one burden on her as she grows up and make sure that there's a good infrastructure system maintained and built for her and their grandchildren and what our grandparents and great-grandparents gave to us, especially in Michigan, a state surrounded by water and much of it underwater, and so we depend so much on roads and bridges to do everything.

Jeff Cranson: 10:22

And I really believe that we probably couldn't build the Mackinac Bridge today in the current environment. Build the Mackinac Bridge today in the current environment and the vision that it took to do the things that they did 60, 70, 80 years ago is just lacking. And I know I've racked my brain to figure out what works. And so have lots of people that get paid lots of money to run campaigns, have done focus groups and research this, and it's just very difficult, and especially in a state where the population is relatively flat.

Jeff Cranson: 10:50

The growth states Texas, florida, utah they can spend more on transportation because they've still got people coming in. What do you think as you get into your new job and you talk to a board of directors about this? What will you say when they ask what can we do to really educate the public about the need for more transportation funding? Or maybe even think of it in terms of you know what do you say when you're home in Coleman for a weekend talking to your parents and even they're progressives. But they even say I don't want to pay more in gas tax, you know? So how do you approach that?

Troy Hagon: 11:24

I mean, for me it's really on advocating for it within the legislature and the governor's office. We need to really continue to build a coalition of all organizations that are interested in the topic. So that's ACEC County Road Association, MITA, APAM. Concrete Association, ACEC, county road association. Um, we aren't going to get this done without a coalition of folks chambers of commerce chambers of commerce.

Troy Hagon: 12:00

Yes, uh, labor, MDOT, um, all of us working together to make to happen. What I would say to my parents is exactly the argument that we just talked about is that what they have provided to us and that we need to continue to provide that to the future generations. So that's how I just look at it as a legacy issue that we need to provide. This is a positive legacy and not the negative legacy that currently the decline of the system is in.

Jeff Cranson: 12:43

Please stay tuned. We'll be back with more Talking Michigan Transportation right after this.

MDOT Message: 12:51

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Jeff Cranson: 13:06

So again going to the conversations that you have outside of the office with friends and family and neighbors, people you encounter, what do you think is the most misunderstood thing about MDOT?

Troy Hagon: 13:19

Well, I think there's a couple, I think. I think that folks still believe that gas tax is somehow diverted away from the roads and not all utilized for the roads. And yes, there's the portion of the sales tax that is not utilized for the roads, but gas tax, as we know, is utilized for transportation purposes, and so I think that that's one thing that folks you know is a myth out there. Another myth is that we don't use the best possible, that we don't build them right when we're building them, and that there's some magic elixir out there that we're not utilizing to build the perfect roadway that can last for 50 plus years. You know, there's still those conversations, still those thoughts out there among the general public, even though they're not brought up in the legislature, that every place else does it right except for Michigan.

Jeff Cranson: 14:25

Yeah, how do you answer that when you get that question?

Troy Hagon: 14:28

Well, I answer it. You know the specifications that are out there. And then talk about the freeze-thaw cycle that Michigan goes through, that a lot of other states don't encounter, and then just the overall lack of transportation funding that we have compared to other states.

Jeff Cranson: 14:50

And you know, the only thing I add to that when I talk about it is the number of various committees that we're on and peer reviews that people at MDOT do with other state DOTs. Everybody I've encountered from every state is trying to do the best they can and not a single one of them are at all bothered, you know, by borrowing from somebody else. It's like, hey, if you're doing it better, we'll do it that way you know right, and Michigan isn't either right.

Troy Hagon: 15:19

We borrow as well. We're innovators, but also borrowers.

Jeff Cranson: 15:24

Yeah, well said, what do you think beyond that? I guess that maybe this applies to the transportation industry too, but because you're going to be working in a different component of the transportation industry, what do you think they'll? They'll teach you about how they respond to being misunderstood and people not understanding how they respond to being misunderstood and people not understanding. I mean, the biggest thing for me is that we still have to educate people that all those people you see working on the roads don't work for the state of Michigan, that the vast majority are private contractors right, those are private industry jobs.

Troy Hagon: 16:13

So you're going to view a total different perspective for me about, really, when we put out the economic impact that a project for MDOT can have, that will now much more resonate for me, being on the private side, and exactly what that means from not only those folks working on the project but the outlying impact that that has pushing out to the surrounding community. That just becomes a number and not really a thought. That drives everything that we do about the importance that good infrastructure has on the overall impacting of the economy throughout the state.

Jeff Cranson: 16:55

So I know we talk a lot about funding and because we haven't been able to get a really sustainable long-term solution, it's easy to be a little dour sometimes and think that you know that we're always chasing something that is really elusive. But in spite of that, the department as you mentioned, innovations does a lot of good things. You've managed to achieve some things during your time, both as an assistant legislative liaison and then as a director of government affairs the last six plus years or just about six years, I guess. Can you remember a couple of things you feel particularly good about getting over the finish line?

Troy Hagon: 17:36

Sure, I was very happy to be part of the Regional Transit Authority when that passed under Governor Snyder. That was very, very exciting to be able to work with Kelly Bartlett who was Director of Government Affairs at that time, and that was a unique time in Michigan history because while we were working on Regional Transit Authority, there was also they were working on right to work. So you had two major issues of different consequences to the state possibly going through the legislature and that was interesting times to navigate interesting times to be to navigate.

Jeff Cranson: 18:25

So you were going back and forth to the Capitol working on this very important historic issue and those people that were there protesting were protesting the RTA. Is that what you're saying?

Troy Hagon: 18:32

Correct, correct. And so that, yeah, that was. That was very unique times to be working in the Capitol when those other issues were going on. But you know, working in the Capitol when those other issues were going on but you know that's something we're still working on is RTA to try to get that completed. But that legislation at the time was very groundbreaking, to get it to the point. It had never been gotten to the point that it was when it passed.

Jeff Cranson: 19:01

No, it had been discussed for more than 40 years at the time, correct. So the fact that it's taking I don't know 12 or 13 now to get a serious discussion about funding, if you put it in that context, maybe that's not so bad.

Troy Hagon: 19:18

True was Governor Whitmer's Rebuilding Michigan Bonding Program and working with the State Transportation Commission to get their approval of the governor's bonding proposal and move that forward in those very important reconstruction projects, the 46 reconstruction projects that have been able to be undertaken by that bonding initiative.

Jeff Cranson: 19:47

Yeah, absolutely, it's made a major dent. I mean, I understand the complaints and frustrations with so much road construction, but the state's busiest freeways you know those in the southern part of the state where most of the people live and travel have almost all been rebuilt from the ground up and should last a good long time. So I think you can definitely count that as an accomplishment. So let's say you're king for a day in transportation in Michigan. What would you do?

Troy Hagon: 20:20

Well, the first thing I would do is pass a comprehensive and sustainable transportation funding program. Okay, how Well. I'm a big advocate of doing something with sales tax or setting up a system like the Michigan Public Service Commission where it becomes like a utility. So either one of those would be a solution that I would offer.

Jeff Cranson: 20:54

You know you're singing from my hymnal on treating them like a public utility, because I think roads are, and you've heard me say too many times we don't go to the legislature to keep the lights on Right. So, oh, that's great. Well, thank you for taking time to talk a little bit about this, and good for people to get to know you as you move into a new role. I'm excited for you. I think this comes at a really good time for you personally and professionally. I'll miss working as closely with you. Obviously, you're my closest confidant in the department and we've managed to tag team a lot of issues over the years, I think very successfully. But I wish you the best.

Troy Hagon: 21:31

Thank you, Jeff. I appreciate it. I look forward to continuing to work with you and all my MDOT colleagues.

Jeff Cranson: 21:38

I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation. You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout. I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jacke Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.